PowderHeads: Episode 6

Evolution of Additive with Dan Brunermer

Tune in as we sit down with Dan Brunermer, Technical Fellow at ExOne, a global leader in industrial 3D printing systems using binder jetting technology to talk competition, education, and the evolution of additive over the past 20 years.

Listen to the full episode or read the transcript below. 

Full Transcript 

INTRO (00:09):
Hi everyone and welcome back to PowderHeads, a Carpenter Additive podcast. With each episode of PowderHeads we bring you the minds of industry experts and delve in the topics that are defining how additive manufacturing is making an impact on our world. In our latest episode, Ben Ferrar, Vice President at Carpenter Additive, sits down with Dan Brunermer, Technical Fellow at ExOne, a global leader in AM technology, providing industrial 3D printing systems and technology. Like so many of our PowderHeads guests, Dan has been part of the additive landscape for a while and has watched the industry evolve and grow to where it is today. Thanks for listening to PowderHeads and enjoy the conversation.

Ben Ferrar (00:49):
Welcome to powder heads. Dan it's. It's great to have you on the show. Um, please, uh, give us a bit about your, your journey and additive. It's really interesting to talk to you.

Dan Brunermer (01:01):
Yeah, sure. I'm mean, uh, so basically, you know, I started in, uh, regular old industry, right? I mean, um, my first job, I was a systems, uh, programmer for the Kurt Leer company. They make, you know, super high vacuum type equipment for R and D and other processes. And then from there, I went to a company where I did a lot of one off, uh, manufacturing type machines, you know, like good old pick and place assembly lines, uh, full on automation, um, large scale fabrication of stuff, uh, custom machine controls. And, you know, I was kinda getting little bit dissatisfied with that life. Um, one off machines can really be draining, especially if you're like a program lead and the software guy and the controls guy. And you're the last man standing every time and every machine takes a year to install. Uh, so that was kind of getting boring or not boring.

Dan Brunermer (02:01):
It was just getting tired and so about, uh, looking for work. And I, uh, got, uh, recruited by, um, what was then called extre home, uh, that would become X one. And, uh, yeah, I tell you the first time. So my first interview, I walked in there and, uh, saw a, a 3d printer printing and, you know, like I always followed the industry, right. I mean, I was a long time machine, uh, machine design subscriber and desktop engineering and all those mags. So I was very aware of additive. I had never actually seen a machine in person and boy, when I walked back to the shop and just sort of saw that thing going and saw the parts laying around the shop, uh, and this is 2001, like I say, I just kind of fell in love with it immediately. I mean, um, as an engineer, so yeah, I mean, like my background, I'm actually a physicist, not an engineer.

Dan Brunermer (03:02):
So there's like a whole bunch of like skills that I don't have, like how to make a really good detail drawing for something, right. Like I can design, but I was never really good at G D and T I never had any training in it. And then all of a sudden I come up, I come across this technology and I'm watching them print these metal parts. And I was like, oh my God, you can get a part made without a drawing. I'm gonna work here forever. And, uh, it was just such an eye opener for me that, that whole digital fabrication workflow that was possible. Um, now of course, lot more complicated than that, but boy, my first blush, I, I fell in love with it. I just, and you know, even to this day, Ben, to be honest, I, you know, I can stand there and watch a machine run. I just find it fascinating. I mean, I find it fascinating that it works.

Ben Ferrar (03:55):
It's, it's mesmerizing. I mean, I, I think back to the, my early days. Right. And, uh, and I think about when you'd see, uh, an X one machine at some of the shows that was the big machine, right? The big machine, the big parts on the stands molds and things like that, you know, that was, it was incredible. Right. Looking at that. And my, my background being typically in the laser side of the things right in the, the powder bed fusion, you know, you'd sort of you'd look and think, wow, look at the scale there because of the, the benefits that binder jet type technology offers, I guess, you know, many people, you know, when they first started in narrative, would've been looking at, uh, you know, like my first machine was a hundred millimeter diameter plate, right. That's, it's a big difference to where, where X one were and a really big difference to where we are now. How, how have you seen, and what have you seen change over your 20 years at X one that, that most excites you?

Dan Brunermer (04:57):
Well, I mean, Hey, listen, what most excites me is just how, you know, we've been materials have always just been a big part of what we do, you know, like trying to develop a new material we've done. You know, what excites me the most Ben is that I'm starting to feel like the technology is ready, getting ready, finally, ready for all the ideas we had 20 years ago. It's like, we're finally getting to the point where, you know, the build speeds really are faster. The now that we have these super fine powders, we can, you know, center real parts. It's no longer, you know, for the first 15 years I was there. We practically only did that stainless steel infiltrated with bronze process really. And it's only since like 2000 full 14 that we've started on single alloy. So, and, and, and what's so cool about it too though, is so, I mean, as you know, we now have like, competition, like we've never had before.

Dan Brunermer (05:53):
Yeah. But, um, but that's just been great. I mean, like that actually, I kind of wished we'd have had competition 20 years ago just because competition forces you to be better, you know? And, um, that's really been exciting just watching the machines turn from, you know, I mean, golly, Ben, my first print head that I put on a machine was like, uh, I think it was 64 nozzles and maybe two inches wide. And the R two machine that I designed could maybe build one inch of depth every 12 hours. And now it's just such a different scale. I mean, you know, we're putting print heads on that have thousands of jets and it's a big wide Stripe across a big, huge box. And just like watching it actually work is, uh, it it's that's, I mean like, this is why I've been here for 20 years is because of right where we are right now.

Ben Ferrar (06:54):
Yeah. I mean, it's definitely been interesting.

Dan Brunermer (06:57):
Yeah. And now that it's like really scaling out it's uh, oh, that's fun.

Ben Ferrar (07:06):
And, and so I guess you, you said 20 years ago, right? You, you had the same ideas and applications, but it's taken a long time also for those industries to catch on to what you, you know, what parts work, what applications work, where it makes the, the business case and financial sense sense to do. So do you, do you ever think that if we could even accelerate that journey of education faster in the next 10 years, you could achieve so much more than, than has been achieved in the, the last 20

Dan Brunermer (07:43):
Oh, in terms of adoption? I definitely think so. Um, I think that one of the things we really are missing, I mean, not just X one, but you know, I mean, think of how many initiatives are going on in the industry right now called design for additive. Right. Like it's not just designed for manufacturer. It's designed for additive manufacturer. And, um, so yeah, I think that in terms of, uh, I think that the co like, you know, if you think about four basic, a axis of adoption, right? Like, uh, ease of use, ease of purchase cost and benefits, the costs are really, and down the benefits are really going up. Um, we've got standard lines, standard processes, standard devices, and, you know, they're becoming the whole, thing's just becoming easier. We're able to find more levels of automation we're able to, uh, do all kinds of frankly, we're able to kinds of operations now that we couldn't do before.

Ben Ferrar (08:45):
Tell me more about the materials capability and what, what we can expect to see in the next five years for the industry.

Dan Brunermer (08:54):
Well, I think that, uh, what you're seeing across all of it is, well, for us, a big thing is finer powders. And I have a feeling that finer powders are gonna find their way into everybody. Eventually, you know, if you think about, uh, what we really did was just kind of redesign all of our recoding systems to be able to, you know, work with some of these highly cohesive powders. But as I've thought about, you know, laser processes and ebeam type processes, I would think that they would somehow they could somehow benefit from these fine powders too. Right. I mean, if you've got the cheaper feed stocks, uh, in your, you can use say, maybe you can use a lower powered laser or, you know, maybe you can do even finer layers who knows. Um, I think that those fine power materials are, uh, are really, what's gonna be the next big breakthrough.

Dan Brunermer (09:50):
I mean, in terms of metal parts, making, um, the material types we can do, you know, and the thing of it is I'm a big believer that we all have a place here, right? Like it's not, it's really not that binder jetting is gonna win it's that binder jetting is another great tool for the toolbox. So, uh, you know, the nice thing about binder jetting is since the first thing that happens is just a simple Glu process. You can do a lot of materials, you know, you can glue a lot of things together, um, that doesn't necessarily mean you can furnace everything together, but you can glue almost anything together and you can research almost anything. So in some ways we kind of feel like there's limitless potential, right. And I think there's limitless for all of us. Um, so, well,

Ben Ferrar (10:40):
You know, I think it's, it, it, it becomes like anything Dan, where, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago, right. It was the easiest thing to do was to offer one size of material, one laser power, one, one spot size or scan rate, right. And say, this is the one that we validated. You use this to make your parts, right. Whereas now, because people have had those tools and they have the education, they're able to say, well, if I want finer detail, I need this type of machine with this size of laser or this many print heads. And I need this size of powder and us, it works the other way, right. People may be looking for a lower cost, less definition and, and they may go the other route, larger powder, you know, higher deposition rate. And I think that, you know, it's, it's only when people really have a true understanding of the capabilities of the technology and the physics behind it, that, that we can start to do that and start to really optimize.

Dan Brunermer (11:40):
Yeah. And, and that's the, you know, talking about education. I still think that one of the things that people need educated about is that, you know, everything is so highly application specific in this industry. You know, like I have been re I, I was reading some articles about, oh, is this gonna be the next way we make screws? And I'm thinking to myself, well, no, this will probably never be the way we make screws. Screws are easy to make, but there might be some really incredible high, one of a kind fasteners that you could come up with that you could not make any other way that did, you know, say multiple fastening operations in one or something, you know, like you've gotta be one of the things about additive is if you're not exploiting all of it, you're not gonna do at the benefit.

Ben Ferrar (12:35):
Yeah. Totally agree.

Ben Ferrar (12:39):
So, but

Dan Brunermer (12:40):
OK. In terms,

Ben Ferrar (12:42):
Sorry.

Dan Brunermer (12:43):
Well, I was just gonna ask you a question. So LPW uh, was that's a, a laser firm.

Ben Ferrar (12:50):
No. So LPW was a powder manufacturer that I worked, uh, in for, in the UK that, uh, as Carpenter Technology we acquired, or I, I was part of the acquisition. That's how I joined Carpenter Technology. And so, you know, that the materials influence there was really strong. And, and as a materials business, we recognized that the way that we were gonna get adoption of the technology wasn't by offering, you know, any material that anyone wanted, we had to create standards and provide data with those standards for people to work of and guidance. Right. So it comes back on that education point that you've talked about, you know, it's re it's really critical as an industry that we, we continue to educate, um, ourselves more than anything is what, what do you do to stay ahead of the curve?

Dan Brunermer (13:45):
Oh, I just read a lot, literally. I mean, um, yeah, I mean, so, you know, Hey, in, in my role as technical fellow, I'm really plugged into our university scene. So, you know, I talk with all of our like partner developer people all the time. Um, there's Hey man, like there's a ton of graduate research going on right now in binder jetting, which is really cool. Um, you know, that's kind of how I'm trying to approach it. Uh, I am, so one of the things that's recently changed about my job is that I've joined our new, uh, chief marketing officer, uh, Sarah in the marketing department. And I'm kind of stepping away from R and D and, uh, machine design and, and specifically, because she wants to come up with better educational programs and she wants to come up with the, uh, you know, all these kinds of trainings, both like how to use our machines, how to design parts for our machines, how to, you know, educate just like focus on, on doing some education.

Dan Brunermer (14:49):
You mentioned having to make something standard. I mean, that's another big part of what I'm doing now is, uh, you know, joining groups like SAE, a S DM ISO, and, you know, Mt. Connect and op C a and like just trying to get some standards out there for binder jetting. Um, and I'm not doing know alone, obviously. Uh, I have, uh, some friends from desktop metal and GE who are also serving on these committees. And we've all kind of recognized that, you know, standards may be the number one enabler to adoption. Ultimately like it might be the no number one existential threat that, uh, you can't just say, well, let me put it this way to enable tier one and tier two, we have to have standards, you know, like that, okay. A company like ours or yours, or whoevers can approach in the other super big company that can afford to think big, but you know, their tier one and tier two suppliers, they aren't gonna buy their own machine until, you know, the automotive industry accepts SAE standards. And as long as you run this machine with these parameters and these settings will make certifiable parts, you know, like without those standards, you know, that's why we're selling machines one by one, right. Is basically because of standards.

Ben Ferrar (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, so I guess with the, with the pace and deposition rate, uh, for want of a better word with binder jet, do you, what do you envisage will be a standard installation in 10 years time? What rate do you think would be at what scale of, of factory do you think it will be in, in 2030?

Dan Brunermer (16:49):
Well, I mean, you know, boy, that far off is really hard to predict, right? I mean, this industry has changed so much even in the last three years or at least my industry, right? Like if you think about the first wave of patents being expired in the plastic extrusion space, and then you think about the waves of patents that expired in the binder jetting, um, I think that in the, until like, it's hard to say, you know, let's put it this way. So like what are there somewhere around? Well, there used to be 59 laser additive manufacturing companies, you know, all doing a different little niche, but all essentially doing S SLM. Um, so, you know, one, I think that, you know, that we could be flooded with competition in 10 years, right. Like if, you know, like, as people are using X one desktop, H P G E uh, digital, no, you know, like as, as, as it gains adoption, there's gonna be more people who want to get into the space.

Dan Brunermer (18:01):
I'm sure. So heck 10 years from now by 2030, uh, either, you know, like we could be the world leader like we are now. Um, I think we're definitely gonna be, you know, when we're talking about installations to some of our largest customers, I mean, so our big machine, the, the S uh, not the S the one 60 pro that we just released it for next. I mean, I'll just say that we kind of envisioned that, and I, I'm starting to see the vision, especially as I've been with the marketing group that, um, you could easily see 10, 12, 14 of those with a whole bunch of automated guided vehicles and massive powder distribution system around the plant. And, um, you know, making darn near anything, uh, as long as you're taking advantage,

Ben Ferrar (18:59):
So people can put it into perspective, right. And, and a lot of, you know, the carpent, uh, additive customers and, and therefore a lot of the listeners of the show are, are laser base. What is it? What's a typical deposition, like rate, like a real rate that you, you would get out of one of those systems.

Dan Brunermer (19:18):
Sure. So like our, our published numbers are actually true. So the thing is, as you, as you can imagine, it all comes, it, it all comes down to layer thickness, right? Because in binder jetting, what you find is that for the most part, the amount of time it takes for you to create the layer that is spreading the layer of powder printing the binder image, and like preparing to spread the next layer of powder. If I do that at 50 microns, or I do that at 200 microns, I still have, you know, like a, around a 20, 21 second layer. So, you know, because we match everything, right. Because if you go down and layer thickness, you know, I just put that, uh, blog post up there, Sarah and I wrote together about the importance or lack of importance of DPI, you know, like DPI only matters when you get down to a layer thickness that brings that DPI out.

Dan Brunermer (20:15):
And so, as you, as you shrink down your layers to get the full benefit, you start using smaller drops and more of them. But we also have some customers that configure their machines to run a 200 micron layer, and they just print super, super fast, cuz they're not so worried about, you know, details and features. And so you've got really big drops and you're going at a really fast deposition rate. And so yeah, when we talk about doing, I think, uh, it's 12, 12 liters per hour or 12,000 CCS per hour, um, that's a real number on the high end or I mean on the absolute fastest end. And so, you know, but now if you're at 50 microns, it's basically a quarter of that. Right. You know, it, it really does kind of scale that way and by getting

Ben Ferrar (21:09):
So, I mean, you talked a bit about, you know, the, the challenge that you face, you know, around a, you know, the sort of educational aspect and, and getting and enabling that adoption of the technology. What's the single biggest technical challenge that you face

Dan Brunermer (21:27):
Jim, in terms of like machine design, process execution. Um,

Ben Ferrar (21:33):
Yeah. Any of those, either of those.

Dan Brunermer (21:36):
Yeah. So the biggest challenges that we face, I guess, are, you know, things like making binders compatible with the chemistry of the underlying metal, that's all, obviously, you know, like you have to tune all of your binders for proper and orderly decomposition, right? Like I can't, if I, if I print a part in, in can L 6 25, but then I, you know, double the carbon re residual carbon content, that's all of a sudden, not an acceptable part. So that's a big, that's always been a big, big challenge, just getting the chemistries right. For the furnaces. Um, I mean, as you can imagine, I mean, it is a centered process, right? So we're doing some work with partners and others, uh, to try and get better simulation on centering operations. They could be very complex, especially if you're trying to do, you know, sizable parts. Uh, that's a really big challenge.

Dan Brunermer (22:32):
Um, Hey, I tell you what man, the importance, you're a powder guy. So you, you should know this more than anybody, the, what you have to do to your powder to keep it, you know, they always say, keep your powder dry, uh, you know, like keeping your powder dry, keeping it like SD, you know, knowing how much fresh to add with how much recycled and, you know, like keeping the powder, uh, right where it needs to be to, to give you that, that surface you're looking for to print on. That's a challenge, major challenge. And I'll say the of myself anyway, you know, back whenever I did my first machine in oh 1 0 2, uh, that was not something we really appreciated was exactly how much Care was required for these powders.

Ben Ferrar (23:26):
I think even now people, you know, treat it as a gray dust, right. Because you can aren't necessarily see it, feel it, touch it in the same way that you can a lump a melt and you, you know, see rust or, you know, see a grease on the surface. Right. You can't see any of that stuff. So, so people don't think about it, but yeah, it's absolutely critical. We, we, uh, we once had a customer that, um, depending on, you know, the day that someone went and got powder out of the store room and depending on the weather that day, they get different results out of their machine. And again, this is just all comes with time and learning on, on what we need to do to be successful and being, you know, being rigorous in terms of our experimental methodologies to ensure that we, we know what the variables are cause you're right. There's a huge number of variables that can affect quality in these processes.

Dan Brunermer (24:23):
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I think that's something that really, um, yeah, as I say, early on, we had no appreciation for, and honestly, we're still coming to grips with it, you know, like it's still a, a big topic of what all do we have to do to keep these powders properly conditioned. And, um, that's a pretty big challenge. And then of course, as you know, just, I mean, there are some practical things, right? I mean, we do have the same things as other powder based processes. You've gotta, you've gotta be able to reclaim that powder. You've gotta separate the bound from the Unbound, separate your parts from what's not. And, um, all of the kind of equipment that goes around that and that still can he your powder in the proper condition.

Ben Ferrar (25:11):
How complex is it with recycling material that is Unbound then?

Dan Brunermer (25:18):
So basically as you could imagine, and I'm sure you guys see this in your systems and you have all kinds of things to try and prevent it, but you know, uh, what you see is, you know, you, you can lose some fine, super the really fine particles over time, right? So you've always gotta be keeping your Virgin stock enough so that the powder distribution stays consistent. So tho that, that's kind of the, uh, that's kind of the rub is that you, if you're not careful about the way you vacuum, if you're not careful about the way you separate and, um, split and mix, you really start to throw off your powder distribution.

Ben Ferrar (26:03):
No, I can appreciate that the fine particles get, get everywhere. Right. They, you know, and you wipe wipe 'em off all the surfaces and then you've lost a part of your distribution.

Dan Brunermer (26:13):
Well, I'll, I'll what I was gonna say is when we say a powders like a, you know, a MI powder D 90 minus 22 microns, that still leaves a whole big, you know, uh, part of the definition of doesn't it.

Ben Ferrar (26:29):
Yeah, definitely. And we see that across our atomization facilities, you know, the different fingerprint that even the, the same type of atomizer leaves, right? It, they, they all have slightly different shifts in distribution, depending on alloy, you have slightly different distributions. And, and that's why it's, you know, we believe it's so important to create those standards and, you know, control what, you know, what's actually, uh, what actually the root to manufacturers.

Dan Brunermer (27:01):
So what metals do you think are going to, like, what, what do your customers tell you? Oh, I wish these guys could process whatever. Like, what do you think some of those metals are that, uh, your customers are looking for?

Ben Ferrar (27:18):
So from, from a laser powder bed per perspective, right? We're we are almost talking about different industries in, in some respects to, to binder jet, right? So we're very aerospace, heavy, and that's nickel Allo high temperature materials, high temperature aluminum. And from a medical perspective, it's, it's really around titaniums is, is attaining and cold alloys is the key, but this is, what's so interesting to me about binder jet. You are, you are looking to serve a market, which is, you know, almost higher volume, right? It's higher volume of components, more, maybe more steels, um, and, and some materials that you can't even process in laser, you know, where, you know, you have high carbon contents that we see cracking in laser processes. So I think, I think when you talk about the two technologies being really, you know, or the, those two technologies serving different sectors, I think it's, it's completely true different applications.

Dan Brunermer (28:22):
Yeah. And that is the one, I mean, yeah. You point that out. I guess I should have that. Um, I guess if, if we have any advantage at all, it's just that we can do things that are non weldable. There's a lot more materials that are sensible.

Ben Ferrar (28:37):
Yeah. So what's the most exciting application or innovation that you've seen in the, in the last three years?

Dan Brunermer (28:44):
Good question. I guess I'd have to say, well, I mean, in the last three years, it really has just been the single allies that has really been the big game changer for us was developing that new Recoder style, the triple a C T we call it, um, that's that, that's definitely by far and away, the number one innovation that we have personally done, uh, maybe as long as I've been here, um, you know, that was a really exciting problem for us all to try and solve. I mean, it took the team, I don't know, a year and a half to get it right. Um, before we could really handle those things. And that was definitely the biggest inva, I mean, that's, that's the only reason why we can do single out, like frankly. Um, so that's definitely the number one innovation in terms of what customers do. You know, it's kind of like what it's always been it's about, you know, the embedded channels and the hidden features part consolidation. I mean, we do a lot of work with, uh, various space agencies and, um, aerospace companies and boy seeing some of that stuff come online has been really exciting. Uh, um, I'd say, yeah, actually. Yeah, I think I'm just gonna stop there and stick with my first answer. I mean, the most innovative thing I've done in the last three years was, was conquer fine powder

Ben Ferrar (30:16):
And, and how long. So if I, if I said I have a new application in material at how long does it take nowadays to develop a repeatable set of parameters and conditions to be able to manufacture parts in, in a new material?

Dan Brunermer (30:36):
Sure. That's a great question. I mean, so let's break that down into, uh, three basic steps where you have the, a printing operation where you just basically make what we call the gray part. You know, that means it's wet in the bed, not actually like even stable yet that goes into an oven for curing and you cure the binder, drive out all the liquids, crosslink the polymers, and you, you know, and then, and then that after you do D powder echoes into centering. So in terms of developing a set of parameters for the printer, that's not so hard, uh, that you can typically do. And, and maybe I say, it's not so hard, cuz we've been doing it so long and we have all of the right powder characterization equipment so that we can kind of predict how much binder it's gonna take to glue it together.

Dan Brunermer (31:26):
Sort of, we kind of have some standard starting points for, uh, print densities. And so it's pretty quickly that you can get the printer itself to converge on a solution that makes good green parts centering on the other hand is much harder thing to, uh, develop and getting those profiles. Right. Those can take a while. Uh, we do a lot of work with partners. We do a lot of work with, uh, you know, we bring in specialized metallurgists for a program or whatever, um, because that's definitely the harder part and centering is really where you're most, uh, resource limited, right? Because on a 25 pro I've got, you know, 400 by two 50. So I can make a heck of a lot of test coupons in an hour. But if every time I need to run a new centering profile to try to better tune in the density or whatever, um, that's typically, you know, when you're doing it in an R and D mode, you're doing it batch to batch. And a lot of times you're looking at a door to door time on your furnace at 24 hours.

Ben Ferrar (32:44):
Yeah. So you're, you're limited by the post-procesing and you're limited by the analysis more than you are by the, the, the sample manufacturer or the test coupons.

Dan Brunermer (32:55):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, getting that part figured out is, is quick. I mean, sometimes it takes two, three days. Like sometimes you get lucky, you put a standard parameter set in with a new powder and it just happens to work, you know, that you can luck out as it were. Um, yeah. So, you know, it it's really that the, the limiter is centering and that's, that's why I was talking before about how we're getting involved with all these, uh, simulation groups and centering, um, or like one of the founding members of a centering consortium here in Pittsburgh. And, uh, that's really what it's about. It's about trying to figure out ways to get better out, predicting, centering. Okay. And so, okay. What do I think the next three years would be like? That will be the big innovation that I'm talking about two to three years from now is how centering simulation has gotten so good.

Ben Ferrar (33:55):
Okay. No, that's really interesting. I, I, I really appreciate you taking the time to, to talk to us today. Thanks very much, Dan. And, uh, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show.

OUTRO (34:06):
Thanks to Dan Brunermer for joining in on a PowderHeads episode. His journey from a physicist background to the role in additive he plays today is a great one. Like so many of us in the industry, the sense of wonder around what can be done and how far things have com is palpable when listening to him speak. If you have questions or comments about what we discussed in this podcast PowderHeads, send them to powderheads@carpenteradditive.com  or visit our podcast page at www.carpenteradditive.com/powderheads. We continue to build an archive of all of our interviews there as well as additional material that provides insight and perspective on modern day additive manufacturing. PowderHeads is managed by Carpenter Additive and its parent company Carpenter Technology, a global leader in specialty alloys for over 130 years. Our goal is to help solve their most challenging material process problems. Learn more at CarpenterTechnology.com. Thanks again for listening and keep building!